4th circuit backs Phelps
We read:
"The father of a Marine killed in Iraq and whose funeral was picketed by anti-gay protesters was ordered to pay the protesters' appeal costs, his lawyers said Monday.
On Friday, Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit ordered Snyder to pay $16,510 to Fred Phelps, leader of the Westboro Baptist Church, despite the fact that the Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case as to whether the protesters are entitled to free speech at the funeral. Phelps conducted protests at Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder's funeral in 2006.
Source
I must say that this is what I expected. Obnoxious as he is, I think Phelps clearly has done nothing to abridge his free speech rights. It is precisely to protect unpopular views that the 1st amendment exists.
SCOTUS will have the last word, of course, but they would have to invent some new doctrine to deny Phelps his 1st amendment rights.
After all, Phelps is right according to the Bible: God DOES hate "men who lie with men". See Romans chapter 1 and Leviticus 20:13. Is SCOTUS going to infringe the right to preach Bible teachings? Even I as an atheist hope not.
19 comments:
After all, Phelps is right according to the Bible
If you believe in a book of fairy tales.
Phelps may be entitled to his free speech but what is very troubling about the 4th Circuit's decision is the imposition of lawyer's fees back on the Snyder family.
Usually such fees are granted when the lawsuit is frivolous and without merit. The mere fact that the jury found for the Snyders indicates that the lawsuit was not frivolous. The fact that a judge reduced, but did not throw out the award, also shows that the suit was not frivolous.
The 4th Circuit may have gotten the reversal correct, but the fees for the lawyers is clearly wrong.
Now in the good old days,
Phelps had the right to say whatever he wanted to say, whenever & whereever he wanted to say them,
BUT the Snyders had the right to be offended and pummel him. Even better, the whole town would have either started the pummeling, or joined in quickly.
Jon: The Bible does teach that 'men who lie with men' are an abomination, but it does not say that soldiers who have no power or authority to change things are hated by God.
Jesus in the N.T. said:John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
I don't know how true it is, but i recently read an article that said Snyder won a $10+ million suit against Phelps on different grounds.
I find it odd that Phelps would aim his anti-gay tirads at our fallen warriors, and not directly at activist gays. I also find it odd that those same activist gays would not be involved in this fight against Phelps.
But there is one tried-and-true remedy for Phelps' conduct, and for anyone else who would defile the last honor for a fallen hero. It requires a tree, a horse, and a rope.
If I was the President I would pardon anyone who took out Phelps and his whole in-bred non-Christian church. I am not advocating that any violently confront the Phelps family. The sitting President would probably not pardon the person who acted against them.
The next Phelps assembly to smear the reputation of a fallen soldier in which they carry signs reading "God is your enemy", someone should show up carrying a sign reading, "God hates the enemies of all mankind, such as Phelps and all his followers."
Technically G-d hates the act of men lying with men, not the men themselves. Oh and Anon 2:43 am, that is your belief, does not make you right.
Snyder won two points in his lawsuit for tort: invasion of privacy and infliction of distress. There was no finding on any matter of free speech. In fact, Phelps' speech was not infringed, unless one construes the multimillion dollar award as something that would "chill" them from continuing to speak out, and thereby infringed their right.
I say, a very large monetary award is good punishment for their torts (the Phelps did not allege anything bad to the dead soldier: he was just the next guy they chose to harrass).
On the other hand, a knuckle sandwich would infringe their right to utter free speech with straight teeth and unbruised lips.
"I find it odd that Phelps would aim his anti-gay tirads at our fallen warriors, and not directly at activist gays."
---It's not odd, Phelps got started targeting just gays, but eventually the media got tired of his bullshit so he had to move into other targets that would bring him publicity.
The correct way to deal with the Phelps media whores is to ignore them. Period. Fred and his lackeys started protesting disasters and dead troopies when the media began to ignore his picking directly on gay people. Doubtless the donations I'm betting he gets from like minded followers of the prince of peace started to dry up, so he picked something to get him more media exposure. If the media would ignore him he would vanish at some point.
As for his free speach, he has it just like everyone else. Lynching him, as several of you suggested, is bullshit. Give him his time and get used to the fact that assholes like him are only possible here because the 1st Amendment still works. I served in my Corps and as much as I hate closet queen Fred and his bullshit message on behalf of his bullshit invisible friend I'm actually glad the court looked past the emotional aspects of this case and upheld his rights.
Now this whole "loser pays the bill" rubbish that got dumped on the jarheads dad...that is an utter load of crap. I hope a higher court at least throws out that part. If we can't have loser pays as part of tort reform because it will deny the right of legal redress of greivances to all but the wealthy how the hell did it happen here to this guy? I call bullshit!
Next time Phelps and his crew of low life misfits show up at a funeral They should get their asses kicked by those attending the funeral. There is no way any D.A. in the country can find 12 jurors who will unanimously find them guilty. There is a doctrine of fighting words where statements made simply to incite hatred and anger are treated as other than free speech.
We need to point all the people with "voices in their head" to these protesting Baptists. What fun that would be!
There is a doctrine of fighting words where statements made simply to incite hatred and anger are treated as other than free speech.
The "fighting words" doctrine requires the words be directed toward an individual who is proximate to the speaker.
In the case, there was no direct reference to the slain soldier and the father was not aware of the protest until later.
The "fighting words" doctrine does not apply here.
Support the Patriot Guard.
They attend our Military Funerals at request and block these fools from ruining the funerals.
http://www.patriotguard.org/
A very worthy non-profit outfit!
This is a hard comment for me to write, but I am very passionate about this.
I absolutely abhor what Phelps and his groups say and do, but under the U.S. Constitution, they are protected by their freedom of speech. What they do is disrespectful, distasteful, and cruel, but it is not illegal.
The majority of us do not like or agree with their hateful vitriol, but if we are to keep OUR liberties under the Constitution, then we must permit this kind of speech to occur. By removing their right to free speech, we open the door for our rights of free speech to be taken away. Or put another way, if they are allowed to speak as they do, they we MUST be allowed to speak as we do.
Anon 3:26 - I don't know where you get that idea from.
Over here at least costs normally follow the event unless there is some form of disentitling conduct (including the refusal to accept an offer which is no worse than the actual result).
Costs are not just awarded when an action is frivolous.
Anon 3:26 - I don't know where you get that idea from.
Please see any reference for the "American Rule" for lawyers fees.
Generally speaking, unless the fees are part of a contract or the lawsuit is so frivolous that it should never have been filed, the "American Rule" applies. There are several states that do have a "loser pays" system, but Maryland is not one of those states.
Over here at least costs normally follow the event unless there is some form of disentitling conduct
If "over here" is outside of the United States, you are correct. Generally referred to as the "English Rule," in countries that follow the "English Rule," fees go to the victor.
However, in the state of Maryland, where this trial was held, the "American Rule" applies.
That person(I won't give him the respect of using his name) can say whatever He wants. However, there is nothing in the 1st Amendment that says 'where' or 'when'. So He can have his free speech, 5 miles down the road on the 5th Tuesday of every month that ends in an R.
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